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A. How do you know they resemble one another? You only know words; you do not know what is behind these words. Words do not guarantee the meaning. This is why it is recommended for a long time not to try to find parallels and to study this system separately from anything else. Later, when you know more, you may try to find parallels. Q. What guarantee is there that there are no new ideas in this system brought in since its origin? A. This is very clear. If the principles are kept, they eliminate wrong ideas. Formatory ideas cannot exist side by side with esoteric ideas. Q. What arrangements can be made to ensure that the ideas can be kept pure? A. Ideas become distorted when people begin to invent their own explanations and theorize; but so long as they work sincerely and try to verify everything that comes into their minds and work according to the principles and rules, distortion is not at all necessary. In the organization of school-work every measure is taken against distortion, and if it happens it is only because people forget these precautionary measures. Distortion is generally the influence of formatory centre, for when people begin to work with formatory centre and nobody corrects them, there is no idea in the world that cannot be distorted in twenty-four hours. Q. If that is the scale of distortion you mean, I certainly distort the ideas for myself. A. For yourself it does not matter—you have a chance to correct it. Everybody distorts them in the beginning until they have the whole range of ideas, but understanding one part corrects one's understanding of another. You cannot understand the whole thing and misunderstand the parts, and if you can think rightly of the whole, you will understand every part. Besides, your questions show whether you think rightly, and if you think wrongly, it is corrected. Q. Different people want different things. How should we understand the meaning of school-work? A. School-work has many different parts, all of them to help you to awake. Every individual must have his own aim. If the aims of individuals fit in with the aims of the school, they work in the school. If they do not fit in, they leave. You may start with the idea of acquiring knowledge. If you find new ideas, you will begin to value them. The word 'work' is often used without discrimination. Q. But you use it yourself! A. I mean it. I want to show you that the only way for you is to understand the psychological method, the idea of esotericism, the proofs of its existence and to have a certain understanding of the system. After that you can start to work. The system is a living thing, an organic thing that grows and opens up new horizons.
You see, we live in a very peculiar time and the work is very important, in that, apart from other points, it gives the possibility to remain sane—or to become sane. The further we go, the more we talk about these ideas, the more we are apt to lose sight of the meaning of the whole thing. We take for granted that we have these ideas, we talk about them, we want to get something from this teaching, but we do not think about why we are able to have these ideas and speak about them. The teaching itself, certain kinds of teachings, certain kinds of ideas become accessible to people only at certain moments, at very difficult periods. These are not the ordinary kind of ideas that you can get at any time and any moment Quite the opposite, the very fact that we can have these ideas shows that it is an extremely difficult time. It would have been much easier to work with these ideas, say, thirty or forty years ago, but in reality one thing depends on another, for if times were not so difficult we would not have had them. So if we keep this in mind, even this realization alone will by itself bring us to the right attitude, it will always remind us that we have to take these ideas seriously, that nothing in relation to them can be taken from the point of view of ordinary likes and dislikes or ordinary attitudes of right and wrong. In present times it is impossible to foretell what the future may bring, so we must have a particular appreciation and a particular regard for these ideas and this system and try to do not only what is right at a given moment, personally, individually, but what is right in connection with the whole thing; not merely think of personal aim but of the whole tradition connected with this work. And certainly, first of all, unity is necessary, because it is possible to satisfy the needs of the work itself only so long as we are all ready to go the same way. If there are different opinions and one thinks it best to go to the right and another to the left, nobody will do anything right, for there will be no direction. If one person thinks one thing and another person another thing, both will be wrong; it is not that one will be right and another wrong Actions must be connected, they must agree with one another. There cannot be a rule that everyone must agree with and understand everything in his own mind, but there can be no difference in actions. Circumstances are not in our hands, they may change, may take one or another turn. But the whole principle of imitating school-work is that there cannot be differences of opinion as regards actions, because otherwise how can we work? I only wish to show you that in dealing with the principles of the system and organization of the work we must never forget that we are dealing with a very big thing, and we have against us very big things. If we keep this in mind we will find the right way. If we forget this, nothing will come of it. Q. What do you mean by imitating school-work?
A. I used this word not in the sense of imitating external methods but in the sense of inner imitation which can be done only on the basis of a certain organization. People in the work must be united. The more we are united, the more resistance we will show to all kinds of unfavourable influences and the more we can get out of them, because we will be, as it were, in the middle of a big accumulator full of all kinds of energies. If we are closed, we will be able to get energy out of this big accumulator; if we are full of holes, we will be unable to keep any of it. You see, I must explain to you one idea. Everything in the world is material and limited, only materiality is different. There is a limited amount of sand in the desert and of water in the sea. Knowledge is also material and therefore limited. It is very useful to remember that the knowledge necessary for change of being exists only in a very limited quantity. Knowledge is substance. For a certain definite period—say a hundred years—humanity has a certain amount of knowledge which can be used. If too many people want this knowledge, they will have so little that nothing can be done with it. But since very few want it, those who want it can get it. Q. I do not understand this about knowledge. Is not knowledge consciousness? A. No, consciousness is another thing, although this is true in the sense that a higher degree of consciousness in itself includes knowledge. It does not include all knowledge, but the knowledge you already possess. In a state of consciousness you know at once all that you know; in this sense you can say that consciousness is knowledge, but by itself consciousness cannot give more knowledge, although one can look at this question from different sides. As to the idea of great knowledge, higher or esoteric knowledge, we must first of all understand that all our ordinary knowledge, including scientific knowledge, is always knowledge acquired with ordinary mind. All methods of scientific investigation are the work of ordinary mind, but there is another knowledge which is acquired by a higher or a more developed mind, and this knowledge will diner from ordinary know ledge, because knowledge acquired with ordinary mind is always limited by methods of investigation, by eye and ear, for, after all, the most complicated instruments that can be used in scientific research have to be verified by eye and ear. This knowledge is a very narrow knowledge not based on understanding of the whole, whereas great knowledge is knowledge based on understanding of the whole by a more developed mind. Thus there are different degrees of knowledge which are so different that they cannot really be compared. If you learn the multiplication table, this kind of knowledge not being limited in amount, you do not take it away from anybody. Nor, in the case of esoteric knowledge, do you in fact take
it away from others, but this is because there are very few people who want it. It is difficult, at first, to accept the idea that knowledge is material, but if you think about it, perhaps you will begin to realize it. Let us take it like this: knowledge can exist in different solutions, in a very weak solution or in stronger solutions. When I speak of knowledge I speak of a stronger solution which is very limited. We think that if we do not know something, it is because we do not know where to learn it. We do not realize how many things there are that we cannot know. Because of this it is difficult for us to understand the materiality of knowledge and what controls its distribution. Just as there are accumulators in the body, so there are accumulators of knowledge in life. At certain periods of history certain knowledge was collected and kept there. If you find such an accumulator, you will get the knowledge. What are these accumulators? They are schools, even the old schools that no longer exist. Man cannot develop without tapping these accumulators, but if he does, he can get energy from them, real energy, such as centres get. Man 1, 2 and 3 will get only coarse energy, the energy that man No. 5 can get will be finer. When it is said that knowledge is limited, it refers to knowledge in these accumulators. Q. Has this knowledge got form and weight? A. Form—not necessarily, but weight—yes, not in the ordinary sense but in the sense of density. In ordinary language too some words have weight while some have no weight at all. Q. How can we work to find this accumulator? Does it refer only to schools, or is it also something within ourselves? A. You can work to come into contact with it just by learning what you can learn. It refers to both, to oneself and to schools. Q. Does a man with greater knowledge have a responsibility towards those who have less? I mean a man who has esoteric knowledge? A. Esoteric knowledge means school, so a man who has esoteric knowledge is a man who comes from a school or who is in a school. His responsibility is towards the school. When a man acquires school knowledge, he acquires responsibility. But it is impossible to discuss this question in general, for there may be many conditions we do not know. For instance, certain knowledge may be given only on certain conditions. Q. What a slender thread our connection with esoteric knowledge is, since it depends on you being with us to impart it. A. It is necessary to understand that our connection with esoteric knowledge cannot depend on a person. Suppose you know a person who is connected with an esoteric school but you cannot understand his ideas. Then your connection with esoteric school does not exist, and if this person dies, the connection disappears absolutely. But suppose during the time he was alive you understood his ideas, then you are connected,
and if he dies you remain connected. So you can be connected with esoteric circles only through ideas, not through people. Q. Could the people in the system have any effect on events in life? A. How do you see it yourself? In what way? Q. I cannot see how they can, except for individuals to become conscious. A. For every individual? How can you make them conscious if they do not want to? This is a characteristic example of how we think. We think that we are asking practical questions. If one asks, one must see some point of application. Suppose people could affect events—suppose there was such big magic—they must spend a certain amount of energy. And you do not know the amount of energy necessary to produce an effect against the current, even the slightest effect. Our time is very bad, very unpleasant kinds of events happen. In order to stop a typical event on a big scale the whole energy of the solar system is necessary. Can you command it? And the second thing is: do you know what is better? How can you be sure? I do not speak now about whether it is possible or not, but even if it were possible, do you have the energy and do you know what is better? We are people 1, 2 and 3; how can we know what is right? We have only just started to study a system that is supposed to bring man to a higher level. This is very useful material to think about. Q. I find that I still cannot give up the idea of our being useful to some sort of conscious work which is going against the general madness. A. But this is imagination, because, first of all, we must be useful to ourselves. How can we be useful to some bigger kind of work if we cannot be useful to our own work? We must first learn to be useful to our own work, and then if there is a larger work, we may be useful to it. Besides, what does being useful mean? You will remember about being connected with the third line of work? A person cannot do more than he can; there may be different circumstances, capacities and conditions, so being useful cannot be taken as an obligation. But one must think about it and use the opportunity when it comes. One thing, however, must be taken as a rule— to do nothing against the interests of the work. It does not mean that everybody can actually help at every given moment, and this is not expected or required. But everybody must be prepared to do what he can and what circumstances allow when the opportunity comes, and certainly to do nothing against the third line of work, for one can do many things to harm it. In the beginning, when we spoke of A, B and C influences we did not specify what they were, we merely took them as influences. Now we must try to divide these influences into classes, and the practical side of this study will be how to control these influences, how to be receptive to certain influences and not be receptive to the influences we do not want. In other words, we must study life. Our study of ourselves will continue, but it is necessary to begin to study external things as well, try to under-
stand them and form a right opinion about them. We will not be able to go far if we do not learn to discriminate between external events, events on a big scale, and find what is good and what is bad from the point of view of possible evolution. If we find in external events something that helps evolution, that will bring us to the question: how can individual evolution, that is, evolution of a small number of people, affect the general state of people? If we look at external life now and ask ourselves how we can regard it from the point of view of the existence of esoteric circles of humanity, we will see that the state of humanity is far from favourable, because, although we know that everybody cannot be in esoteric circles, there can exist in life definite influences coming from these circles. But we can say positively that we cannot see any signs of a control of things by the esoteric circles—life goes on by itself. Roughly speaking, man's situation can be described like this: he is a machine governed by various currents coming from the big machines that surround him. What are these big machines? All big events, wars, revolutions, civilizations, religions, science, art, inventions of the last century— all these things produce different influences that act on man. Then in connection with schools it was explained that the possibility of escape is only in schools, that is, with the help of C influences. But what is the situation of people who do not know any school, for the possibility of school-work is very small and very rare? Does it mean that it is absolutely impossible to attain anything without school, or is there such a possibility? You remember I spoke of the three traditional ways and the Fourth Way. These four ways are called subjective ways. These ways are supposed to produce certain effects. But some people, maybe very few, may develop to a certain extent even without school-work. This is called the objective way; but it is a slow way. Subjective ways are short-cuts, they are for people impatient of ordinary slow work, even if there is a certain progress. So theoretically you can get possibilities of development living quite an ordinary life, without C influence, using only the material provided by B influences. You remember about B influences: religion, philosophy, art, science? On the whole, if people can absorb enough of this material, it should be sufficient for development, but even at best it is slow and uncertain development. All schools, all ways are for impatient people; that is why they are called subjective ways. So the answer to this question is both yes and no; some people can develop without schools and some cannot, because it is a question of different types of people. Besides, the objective way also needs conditions; it does not mean that all people who are not in the work can develop. In a sense the objective way is even more difficult than school-work, because there one has no possibility of verifying whether what one decides to do or not to do is right or wrong. In school one can verify; but verifying is one thing and doing is another.
Q. So it is not impossible or improbable for a man to develop without the help of a school? A. Only to a certain extent, and that also with the help of a school, only without his being aware of it. For there are many things in which the help of schools can be found—generally in religions, philosophical systems and so on. You remember I said before that there are different schools: one person needs one kind of school, another person another kind. There are no universal schools suitable for everybody. At the same time you must realize that the chance to meet some kind of school is very rare—I mean to meet a school in real life, not in books or in theory; and if one meets a school, generally there is no other. If one finds this school too difficult and begins to look for another school, then, supposing even that one does meet another, one will find the same difficulty there. There can be no difference between schools in this respect, because differences are created by the relation of a man's state to school. So it will always be the same whatever school a man finds. I remember being told a story once by a man who said it had been his own experience. Some disciples of a school which was half-Yogi, half-religious, found the school too difficult, so they came to another school. To their surprise they were immediately given the same task to do, but with some additional difficulty. One of them asked the man who gave them the task how he knew, whether it meant that schools communicated with each other when a man left. The teacher answered: 'It is not worth while communicating when a man runs away from one school and comes to another. As soon as I saw you I realized the kind of task you had been given, and could only give you the same but perhaps a little more difficult.' So, you see, there is really no choice. Q. What will happen if one acquires change of being without school? A. If one gets being or knowledge so to speak undeservedly, it is generally incomplete and worse than nothing, with the exception of very rare cases in the objective way; but the latter happens so seldom that it is no use speaking about it. Certain examples of wrong ways will be explained later, because in understanding the wrong way we can understand better the right way. For instance, efforts can be made on the basis of fear, but it will not be a right effort, because right effort should be based on understanding, not on fear. To return to our situation, we must remember all that we have heard and understood about attitudes. Our attitudes are like wires which connect us with events, and certain currents produced by the nature of these attitudes flow through these wires, and the nature of the current determines the kind of influence we receive from a given event. If a certain event produces an influence on us, this influence can be changed by our attitude.
We must create a certain understanding of external things. This means we must judge them not by personal sympathies and antipathies but, as I said, from the point of view of their relation to possible evolution, that is, we must judge them from the point of view of a possible increase of the power of esotericism, because evolution of mankind means an increase of the power of esoteric circles over life. I said that at every moment one is surrounded by a great many big moving things which always affect one whether one is aware of it or not. They always affect one in one way or another. One may have very definite attitudes towards such things as wars, revolutions, events of social or political life and so on, or one may be indifferent, or negative, or positive towards them. In any case, being positive on one side means being negative on another, so it does not change anything. Right attitude includes understanding the quality of a thing from the point of view of evolution and of obstacles to evolution, meaning by 'evolution' conscious, voluntary and intentional development of an individual man on definite lines and in a definite direction during the period of his earthly life. Things that do not help are simply not considered, however big they may be externally—one does not 'see' them. And if one does not consider or see them, one can get rid of their influence. Only, again, it is necessary to understand that not considering wrong things does not mean indifference, because people who are indifferent do not consider things, but are affected by them all the same. I repeat again, it is necessary to think about things using the ordinary emotional and ordinary thinking faculty and to try to find in what relation they stand to what we call evolution, that is, increase of the influence of inner circles and growth of the possibility for the right kind of people to acquire the right kind of knowledge. We have to understand the weight of things. You remember, it was explained about words that they have different weight and it is necessary to feel their weight. It is the same with events. Just as in ourselves there are many imaginary, invented things, so there are also in life. Because people believe in them, they produce an effect. In this sense almost the whole of life is not real. People live in non-existent things and do not see the real things; they do not even bother to think about them, being completely satisfied with the imaginary. Try to concentrate on the question of what is important and what is unimportant; we must learn to distinguish these things. So far, with the help of the work, we could define good and evil in relation to ourselves. Now we must come out of our shell and try to look around, using the same methods and the same principles. If we use one type of principles for ourselves and another for external things, we will never get anything out of it. We do not think sufficiently of the relation of this work to life in general, we do not give account to ourselves of the position it occupies
as regards life. I do not say you can answer this question, but you can think about it, see it from one angle or another angle. Unless you think about it, things will not be in their right perspective for you and you will not understand the work in the right way. The work is a small thing, and enormous things belong to life. I do not mean by this wars and revolutions and things of this kind, but things belonging to everyday life. You will see that it occupies no position at all and need not exist from the point of view of life. At the same time the work is the most important thing for those who understand it. So we must make it go on and not expect any help from life. We must go against life, do everything ourselves. We cannot think that there is plenty of time, that if we do not do something now we will do it next year, for next year things may be different. Analysis of events in life can be based on the idea of influences A, B and C. We can ask ourselves, how many influences of the third kind, that is, influences conscious both in their origin and action, do we see? We must admit that we never see them. If we are looking for something, we meet only with certain manifestations of influence B, and every influence B is surrounded by all possible dangers and all kinds of forces trying to destroy it. Many influences B are disappearing under our eyes; things that could be found not so long ago cannot be found any more. How many influences B of the past reach us? They do not live long, they have a short life, with the exception of two or three which are surrounded by such a tangle of mechanical adaptations that they almost become influences A— they survive only in this form. All mechanical forces tend to destroy them because in their origin they are opposed to mechanical forces. Q. What is the connection between civilization of the world and personal evolution? A. We do not realize that the beginning of many activities in life is the work of conscious people. We think that all the work we see was begun and continued by people such as we are, by sleeping people. But sleeping people can only accidentally invent something useful, and they invent both useful and harmful things with equal pleasure—they cannot distinguish the one from the other. If we accept the word 'civilization'—it is the work of sleeping people, so there is no guarantee: there may be civilization to-day and barbarism to-morrow. Supposing that what you or someone else calls civilization destroys influences B and you find yourself surrounded by influences A, you will have no chance. And, indeed, what we ordinarily call civilization does destroy influences B. Revolutions destroy, wars destroy, civilizations destroy—everything destroys esoteric influences. For instance, schools have always been destroyed by wars; that is a well-known fact. Schools cannot be established permanently. It is not exactly that wars intended to destroy schools, they did it by the way. War is one of these institutions
in the life of humanity which make work impossible and destroy schools. School-work needs a certain amount of normality in life; if life becomes too abnormal, school-work becomes impossible, and a school disappears. Q. But people who profit by school-work do not disappear; what they learned would not leave them? A. If they learned enough they will profit by it, but if they only learned a little they cannot profit much. There is a certain standard, a certain amount of knowledge necessary, and if you acquire this amount you can continue to work, but if you did not get enough you cannot. Individual people, if they have reached a certain stage in development of consciousness, can isolate themselves from circumstances and can continue to work so long as they remain alive. But school is under different laws: it needs an external form. Schools can do nothing about it—they have to take circumstances as they are, both big and small schools, elementary or highly developed. They have to exist in whatever circumstances they find themselves, and if circumstances become impossible, schools become impossible. This must be kept in mind. There is another thing in connection with this. Religion is a more stable thing. Maybe it was organized in that way in order to exist. But schools cannot be organized in the same way, they need a certain minimum of security to survive. Q. Why has the influence of the esoteric circles been diminishing lately? A. People are becoming less and less sane. They need less truth and are more incapable of distinguishing it and more easily satisfied with lies. Interest in these ideas is much less and people's preparation is much less than even thirty or forty years ago. And this is not only the result of political events, although they also have their part in it. Q. In what sense do you mean people are less prepared? A. For instance, the idea of esotericism was not explained in St Petersburg; it was supposed to be known. Now it can no longer be assumed that the psychological method of thinking, the existence of esotericism and the need for schools of an esoteric origin is understood. We can never understand the meaning of esotericism and the inner circles of humanity until we understand that life is chaos and that things, instead of becoming more controlled and orderly are becoming only more complicated and less controlled. We take complication for progress. In ordinary life people's actions are not co-ordinated and results are unforeseen. Each man works in his own direction and the combined results produce things. Results in life are the results of cross-purposes, not the results of intentional actions. It is necessary to understand that this is always so in the outer circle and it cannot be different. We can do nothing to change this state of affairs. We are corks on the waves which think that they control currents. It is very important to think about that and to look at things
from this point of view. If one docs not understand the difference between the inner and the outer circles, one will not understand further. What is possible in the inner circles is impossible in our circle. Q. Should not the present state of the world make more people look for schools? People are frightened, they feel uncomfortable. A. Why should one discomfort lead to another discomfort? Do you think that will make them come? You expect too much of them. You can say to a man that if he studies the system he will be more awake, but you cannot say he will be better off. Q. They will get rid of identification. A. And they will say that they cannot work without identification, and if they are not identified, they will lose all their money. There is no connection between interest in the system and the discomfort of the present situation. Q. I have been very puzzled by my observation of young people. If they are happy and thoroughly normal, the idea of esotericism does not seem to appeal to them. A. The idea of esotericism is very difficult. Sometimes one can catch its meaning at an early age, but often one fails to see it from the right angle. We have so many wrong attitudes and wrong ideas that nothing can be expected. I think a person who becomes seriously interested in these ideas is an exception, because people's minds are in such a confusion with absurd and contradictory ideas. Q. I am only interested in the psychological side of the system, but not in esotericism. A. But the psychological side is also esoteric. The system gives you nothing that is not esoteric, for the whole of it comes from minds that are not ordinary minds; it comes from people who understood things. Ordinary systems cannot bring about any change. The psychological side of the system is even more esoteric than the other side, or it would have no value. It has value only because it comes from higher minds, from their understanding and their ideas. This must be understood. We got this system somehow. If we suppose it has been created by men on the same level as we are, or that it is a theory, it has no value at all. But it is not a theory; it is supposed to come from school, from men of higher development. If there were no men of higher development, we would have no system. In the beginning in Russia Mr Gurdjieff always insisted that it was not a system; it was just fragments and one had to make a system out of them. And he insisted that it should be given in this way. Now I make it more of a system, because we have more people. But when it was only a small group it was just conversations and not lectures. In lectures it is difficult to speak in fragments, but on the whole it is still fragments, all the same. These fragments are on different scales, so you must understand much to
put them together on the right scale. The same words and the same theories are used in different diagrams, for instance—all on quite different scales. Q. Can you give an example of what it means that it is taught in fragments? A. Many things are taught like that: all about building up energies, the psychological side, the explanation of how the machine works, the side concerning the world and so on. It is very important to understand this. Only when you begin to understand how the scale changes will you be able to understand the system. As I said, it is taught in fragments each of which is on a different scale. You have to put them together and at the same time correct the scale. It is like several geographical maps, each on a different scale, cut into pieces. You have to see which piece fits which, where the scale is very different and where it is less different. This is the only way to study this system. Q. Do you mean we cannot talk about the worlds unless we reduce them to our scale? A. No, what I meant is quite different. Of course, we reduce everything, but what I meant is that we have to study things on different scales and we must remember this and realize the relationship of different scales and the fact that things change with change of scale. Also we must bear in mind that, about many things, we believe that they mean something, when actually they mean nothing at all. The system teaches us to find the difference between realities and imaginary quantities (and even worse than imaginary). Q. I feel we have only half the knowledge of the system we could have. A. Much less than half. Such as we are, we can only get fragments but sufficiently big to build something out of them. We must try to understand the structure. When you have all the fragments before you, you may see certain connections, and when you find these connections you may see many other things. Q. Have you altered the teaching much? A. I have not altered it. But I prefer sometimes to start from a different point. In this system, as in any organic system, one can start from any point—this is not an alteration. Everything else remains the same, but I prefer to start with the psychological side. Q. Have the people in the inner circle any control over people in the outer circle? A. Yes, but with many reservations. The conscious circle cannot act directly, but only through B influences. Influences C can appear only if influences B are accepted and if people look for them. Men in the inner circle cannot have control over people who do not wish to know them. They cannot use violence, because it would mean a wrong triad, a wrong activity. For every kind of result there is a special triad. For instance, if